The Business Shrink Interview Series - Actress, Lis Rohm

The Business Shrink Interview SeriesActress, Lis Rohm

(star of ABC’s “Big Shots, “Law & Order” alum”)

Peter L: Elisabeth Rohm, welcome to the program. I’m Peter Laufer. As I was mentioning to the audience, Peter Morris, The Business Shrink, tied up at O’Hare. For those of us that travel a lot, we know that being tied up at O’Hare is almost routine. Welcome to the program.

Lis: Hi, how are you?

Peter L: Welcome as the star, Alex Mason, in the ABC drama, “Big Shots.”

Lis: Thank you!

Peter L: Just the latest in a long list of career hits amazing career hits you’ve had as an actress since your time at Sarah Lawrence when you decided you were gonna shuck the writing and become an actress. How did you make that decision?

Lis: You know, I think when you first get out of college, the sky’s the limit. And if you’re smart, you probably know that. You know that you could backpack across Europe. You know that you can do anything. That’s your moment. One of your moments, anyway, to really explore who you are. Because college is fun. I thought it was, but also very constricting. You have a lot of responsibilities. So when I graduated, I thought, “I’ll give it a shot.” And I always tell this laughingly, “if I don’t become famous in 2 years, then I’ll quit and do something else–get real about the world.” Well, obviously, nobody becomes famous in 2 years. So I stayed in Los Angeles, and about 3 years later got “Law & Order.” But once I came to L.A., I was a little bit hooked on the acting thing, so I didn’t give up so easily.

Peter L: It’s interesting that you say “become famous.” Is that the goal? I would think the goal is to perfect your art on stage or to communicate with an audience or to make piles of money or to find the perfect husband. Is that the goal? To become famous?

Lis: I think that they go hand-in-hand. Who is recognizable for being able to bring a result to the table? In the world of acting, “celebrity” is a word that is commonly used. It’s not a dirty word. “Fame” is not a dirty word. It’s just something that goes along with the craft or with the task of being an entertainer. But it also goes along with the good luck, the luxury, the chance of being somebody that’s constantly hired and in demand. If you’ve done high-profile jobs, done a good job at them, the chance of you getting another job are very likely.

Peter L: Sure.

Lis: So it wasn’t so much that I was seeking fame. I was seeking exposure and I was seeking to be recognizable in my craft as somebody that was worth hiring to get the job done.

Peter L: That’s admirable. Now, Elisabeth Rohm, you talk about celebrity and getting the job done. Someone who is sought and hired. We talk a lot in this information world about the avalanche of material that comes our way. Is there some kind of corralary for an actor or actress? Is fame different now because there are so many platforms where an actor or actress performs? If you compare it to 50 years ago during the time of the studio systems in Hollywood, was fame more prominent? Are you diluted somewhat because of all the other actors and actresses out there doing so many different things?

Lis: I think that this business has, ironically, created entertainers, and they’ve created themselves, in a very similar understanding of being public, of being exposed, being vulnerable about the things you’ve personally been through. I think that the things that define an artist are also somewhat unchanged. Most of us have studied with great acting teachers or gone through conservatories. So think looking back in time, let’s say the 50’s compared to today, I think that the way that we operate and the way that we maintain our credibility in the business is somewhat similar. Except for the fact the studio don’t own us. We can work with other studios. We have diversity in that choice. We can even create our own studios. Even back then, Chaplin was creating his own studio. I think that things have evolved, but I also think that part of the responsibility of being an entertainer is being comfortable with being approached by someone on the street that may like your work. Or having a voice when you’re doing an interview that is educated and responsible. You don’t have to take a platform on anything but just be open answering tough questions because they’ll be asked of you.

Peter L: That makes sense. When you try to define yourself, aside from “famous,” what is it you want people to know about you? Is it the credits? Are there a few credits that your more proud of than others? Is it your self as a human being? One thing I find intriguing, you talk about 50 years ago, you come out of Sarah Lawrence with that kind of education, that’s very different than sitting on a vinyl stool at a soda fountain in Hollywood hoping some producer will discover you.

Lis: Well, luckily for me, I took a really conservative route. I just auditioned for things and luckily, got hired really early on. I wasn’t waiting for that ephemeral moment of being the check out girl in the grocery store waiting to be discovered on Sunset Boulevard.

Peter L: But it’s such a romantic idea.

Lis: Yeah. You know, it does happen. I’ve heard these amazing stories. I know people that it’s happened with. But that’s not how it happened with me. I auditioned. Got the job. One of the things I was thinking about in regard to this program and perseverance and strength, just as an example–I auditioned for “Law & Order” when the role became available as the Assistant District Attorney when Angie Harmon got the role. I didn’t get the role then. And, as disappointed as I was, I waited 3 years later and I auditioned again because I thought, “I want this part and I’m not going to be intimidated by the fact that I didn’t get it the first time.” And the second time I gave it a chance, I got it. The same thing happened with “Miss Congeniality,” which is a movie that I did part two of. Part one I auditioned for–I didn’t get it. Part two, I did get it. I thin it’s really important to not be intimidated by being told “no” or by being pushed away. You have to come back and you have to come back again and again and again. I think that that kind of perseverance is what success is based on. It’s not like I came to Hollywood or came to New York or pursued acting and then all this happened so perfectly. I just never gave up. I have continuously been rejected and also succeeded because the rejection didn’t turn me away or make me run home to my mommy with my tail between my legs.

Peter L: Sure. It’s like, how many strike outs did Babe Ruth suffer before he collected all those home runs?

Lis: The numbers might be interesting to compare. Because for all the rejections one might have as an actor, you have this one success. But it’s that success that defines you and people tend to forget the moments that were unsuccessful. Dick Wolfe once said to me–I did a pilot with him before he gave me “Law & Order”–and we didn’t end up getting picked up, meaning it didn’t become a show on network television. It just became a pilot and disappeared. And I said, “Oh my God, this is horrible! What’s going to happen?” and he said, “Next.” (laughing) He said, “Let me teach you something about business. Next.” And I think I’ve approached auditioning like that with the humility to know that if it doesn’t work out I just head with my blinders on to the next one.

Peter L: Sure. And it’s a matter of getting the work done, right? For example. I’m a writer and so many people say, “I could write a book.” And how many of them write the book? Let a lone end up getting it published. It’s all of that work that gets past “I could write a book” to becoming a writer. It has to be the same in acting and it has to be the same in selling Fuller Brush door-to-door.

Lis: Absolutely. And I think that that’s also really applicable with my relationship to the Red Cross.

Peter L: I have to interrupt you for a second, Elisabeth Rohm, because we are going to talk about that and take calls from the audience here momentarily. The number here is 866-546-3114. We’ll be talking with Chris in New York next as we continue the discussion on The Business Shrink program with Lis Rohm. I’m Peter Laufer. Stay tuned.

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Segment 2

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Peter L: We’re pleased to have Elisabeth Rohm on the line with us. Where are you, Elisabeth? Where do we find you?

Lis: I’m in Los Angeles.

Peter L: In Los Angeles. Well, that’s where an actress should be. Except, you should have said Hollywood.

Lis: I’m on my way home to New York for the holidays.

Peter L: Terrific. We’re talking about your career and we’re talking about success and the perception of success, the need to get to work, what factor education plays. And we’re talking about the work that you’ve been doing with the American Red Cross. We’ve got some folks on the line that want to talk with you and we don’t want them to wait too long. If you would like to join the program, you are always welcome to do that. The number, 866-546-3114. The Business Shrink, Peter Morris, will join us when he can. In the meantime, Chris in New york, welcome to The Business Shrink program. You’re on the air with Elisabeth Rohm.

Chris: Hi! Normally I take this as revisiting my past, listening to The Business Shrink because I’ve been in marketing for 20 years. But for the last 3 months I’ve delved into the acting world and so it was a pleasant surprise to here you on the show today.

Lis: How funny.

Chris: My question is about networking and making contacts. As somebody just starting out, and an older person at that, how’s it done?

Lis: Oh, gosh. That’s a really tough question because I think it’s done differently for everybody. I think, more importantly, networking and shmoozing and going to the right parties is not what gets you hired. I think Peter brought up a really good point when I used the word, “fame.” “If I became famous, I’d stick with it.” That was the youthful term because at the time I thought, “If I become famous then everything’s going to be OK.” But I’ve been a working actor for a really long time and it’s never ever OK. You constantly have to push, you constantly have to reinvent yourself. And it is only and always about the work, so the most important thing I would say is to get an agent. Well, how do you get an agent when you’ve been pursuing an entirely different career? Well, unfortunately or fortunately, they need to see some kind of work in order to want to hire you to represent you and send you out on other auditions to get other work. It’s kind of an archaic system, but what you’d really have to have is tape–film footage of a scene that you were in. A play, a scene you did with a friend in their backyard, filmed by somebody. As long as it didn’t look like someone’s backyard but it looked somewhat professional. So that you have a tape to get out there to people. I don’t think that partying and going out to events where you hope to run into Harrison Ford is the right thing, you know?

Chris: I’m an old married lady. That’s not happening anyway!

Lis: Right. I mean, but a lot of people do think that if they’re in the right place at the right time things can happen. I think it’s more about making sure that you can get some footage of yourself on tape and send it to agents. And if they see something, they’re going to grab you, you know?Chris: OK.

Peter L: Let me ask you this, Elisabeth. Isn’t that kind of a vicious circle? If that tape is amateur, even if it looks good, isn’t it hard to intrigue an agent because you haven’t done something yet? Don’t you have to do something to get the agent, but you can’t do anything without an agent?

Lis: It is. It’s a very challenging obstacle. It’s a hard question to answer. Obviously, for me, I auditioned for soap operas, got on a soap opera, got fired from the soap opera, but had tons of scenes on tape. And then I got an agent. It’s also luck and so forth, but who wants to hear that as an answer? So I would just say that the best way to get representation is to have a great scene and maybe you shoot in a studio. Maybe you have a friend that’s a radio personality or at TV anchor or a journalist and you use their studio. And you film a scene with an actor that’s really high quality. The only way, yes, to get representation, or dependent upon (I think you’re in New York is what I heard when you were introduced) is to get backstage, which feels like taking 100 steps back because you’re an accomplished woman. Audition for student films and get into a student film, which probably feels bizarre and scary. But at least you’d have a camera filming you with film and you’d have something to show somebody. And I think Peter’s right. You have to have something to show somebody. Or it’s going to be an uphill battle.

Peter L: That’s a help, Elisabeth. Chris, is that something to go with?

Chris: That’s great! It sounds like I’m on the right path. I’ve done a lot of student films and I’m working on it. So thank you.

Peter L: Well, good luck to you, Chris. And thanks so much for calling. We’ll leave the line open for you if you like. 866-546-3114. If you’d like to join The Business Shrink program and talk with Elisabeth Rohm, she is here with us this hour. And in Kansas, Colleen is on the line. From Kansas City, welcome to The Business Shrink program. The Business Shrink, Peter Morris, is on his way. I’m Peter Laufer and you’re on the line with Elisabeth Rohm.

Colleen: Hi. Thank you. Hi, Elisabeth.

Lis: How are you?

Colleen: I’m great. How are you doing?

Lis: Great. Thank you. I’m excited about Christmas.

Colleen: Me, too. And it’s snowing here in Kansas City.

Lis: It is? I’m jealous! All we’ve got is blue skies and palm trees encircled with white blinking lights.

Colleen: I’d kind of rather switch you. I was just wondering, what are some of the high and low points of trying to make it in the business?Lis: Like Peter and I talked about from the beginning, I think that making it is only a high. I’m not somebody that gets chased to my front door and I have to break through the front door and shut it before the paparazzi attacks me. I know some people have that experience, but it’s not mine. So I don’t have any low points of being a working actor. I think that, just to stay on point with the show, I think that there are ups and downs in everybody’s career and you kind of have five year runs. Let’s say where you just do really well and have all this stuff going on. And then you might have a year or two that’s a lull. Or you need to just work a little bit harder. Look at someone like Madonna. She’s not an actor, but she’s someone who has really reinvented herself. And to stay an entertainer over several decades is a real challenge. Many actors and singers, they come and go after 10 years of success. So I think you have to constantly be reinventing yourself artistically, but to be working at all as an artist and have that be what pays your bills…there’s just no lows for me in that. I feel really lucky.

Colleen: That’s a really great perspective. Thanks. I like that.

Peter L: Thanks for the call, Colleen.

Colleen: Thank you! Bye.

Peter L: And if you’d like to join the program, give us a call at 866-546-3114. You’re talking about the paparazzi, Elisabeth. What is this level of fame where you’re playing? When you walk down the street, can you go into the local MacDonalds and order a hamburger without being recognized and mobbed? Or are you recognized and it’s comfortable and you enjoy it and people are gracious? Where is it that you sit?

Lis: I’m somewhere probably in the middle because “Law & Order” is so familiar and rerun so much. People do approach me regularly, but I find it to be really easy going. Most of the people that liked “Law & Order,” just for instance, are older, sophisticated, think it’s a smart show and they like it. They remind me of people in my family, so it’s not like…

Peter L: It’s not disconcerting. You don’t feel imposed upon with a loss of privacy?

Lis: I think that the fans of “Law & Order” are pretty intelligent, sophisticated people, so no, I think they’re really polite. And it’s always flattering that people like the work. That’s it. I just think you get accustomed to being approached. It’s different than what other people do. They don’t get approached and told, “Hey, you did a great job on Wednesday.” But we do and we have to be gracious about that.

Peter L: And that’s satisfying on some level, too. We all have enormous egos no matter what we do. I’m convinced. So on some level, it must feel pretty good, yeah?

Lis: Oh, sure! You know, I was in New Zealand doing an autograph signing for “Law & Order” and someone had seen a Lifetime movie of mine that I did last year called, “The Amber Story.” It was about the creation of the Amber Alert, which we are lucky to have in this country. I played the woman whose daughter was kidnapped and that created it out of her grief. And it meant so much to me that this girl in New Zealand had seen it and loved it and I made her feel something. And she told me about it.

Peter L: That’s spectacular. And we’ll continue this conversation. It’s fascinating to get this insight. Elisabeth Rohm on The Business Shrink program. Peter Morris, en route. I’m Peter Laufer, holding the fort until he gets here. And if you’d like to join the conversation, you are welcome to at 866-546-3114.

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Segment 3

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Peter L: Peter Morris, welcome to your program. It’s been a great half hour so far with our guest, Elisabeth Rohm, talking about her acting career. You’re here just in time to orient the program on toward her work with the American Red Cross. But first, what’s your excuse for being a half hour late?

TBS: It’s called, United Airlines.

Lis: Oh no, I thought it was the snow storm.

TBS: Well, actually, the snow storm was probably the excuse that United used, but the fact is, the snow was in between Chicago and Boston and neither place. I came in from Boston with ample time but there was a delay. So, here I am and I apologize, but I know at least you were in good hands talking to Peter. There’s so much to discuss with you. I know that the audience will not feel redundancy in our conversation.

Lis: I hope not.

TBS: In that regard, you relationship with charitable causes and in particular, the Red Cross, and then some of the things you do that are entrepreneurial in your spirit and your actions are further in support of this non-profit and are of great interest to me and the listeners. As you are aware, Mohammed Yunus, an Indonesian scholar who founded the Grameen Bank for micro-financing third world countries where they lend anything from five dollars to a thousand dollars to small entrepreneurs, help train them and help them be on their way to earning a living, won a Nobel Peace Prize this year. A lot of what you’re doing fits into that. We are, too in some of the things we do in our other life. Tell us how you became engaged and so supportive of the Red Cross.

Lis: It’s really multiplied over the last several years because I’ve been a member of the Celebrity Cabinet which is something that we can kind of talk about. It’s a system, a board, that they’ve put together of various celebrities who also have an entrepreneurial spirit. Like Jane Seymour, for instance, she went to Kenya in 2002 to vaccinate children against measles and then she and her husband made a documentary about the issue. So, an organization within the organization that has entrepreneurial people, artists, entertainers, various personalities that really take their place on the board seriously, but it’s almost self-created. When I joined the celebrity cabinet in 2006, I did so because I was going to do a campaign in New York, which is where I’m from, to raise funds and volunteer hours from individuals in the New York chapter. That got me so excited that I called the national chapter. I said, “I have a really famous friend who’s a photographer, he’s known worldwide and he does portraits of individuals. He’s really edgy and he wants to do a campaign for free to inspire volunteerism in the nation.” So we could get celebrities, we could get recognizable faces, we could get entrepreneurs that you would know if people were to explore who they are, and we’ll have them photographed with other volunteers of the Red Cross that are hometown heroes. And we’ll get these campaigns all across the country and let the American people know that this organization is run 99% on volunteerism. So it takes an entrepreneurial spirit of everyone, whether they’re a celebrity, whether they’re an entrepreneur like yourself, or someone who is just raising their children. But once a week they volunteer and they go out and they deal with local fires in their neighborhood. It takes an entrepreneurial spirit to even be a member of the Red Cross and be involved with them. I’ve really, I’d say step-by-step, done the things that come from my own passion as I’ve discovered what the Red Cross does and how they the compassion to offer assistance to people in a time of crisis or need.

TBS: Well, that’s fascinating. I would say there’s a number of definitions of entrepreneurship, entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial spirit, but one that comes to mind really involves the notion of somebody having a passion to work hard, to create something from their spirit and make it real in the marketplace, whether it’s non-profit or for profit, whether it’s a service or a product. And they’re willing to give blood, so to speak, no pun intended, and suffer for the joy of creating things. I think that’s perhaps wordy, but I think it goes to the spirit that you’re talking about. But in that regard, there’s several levels here that you’re probably involved in. If not, know about intimately because enterpreneurship applied to something like the Red Cross could mean A) getting the name out and creating good will, creating a media sensation that would cost millions and doing it for free by donating time and recognition. You’re already doing that. Then there’s another level where creating concerts, art exhibitions, photographic exhibitions, selling things to the public where all or a major part of the proceeds go in lieu of or functioning as donations. And then C) there’s also using some of that money, to not only to feed people, clothing, and to give them vaccines, but help put some of these people in disadvantaged positions in business in a way that they can earn money and earn a sustainable living doing different enterprises. Going back to the notion of micro-finance. I see many levels of entrepreneurship here.

Lis: It started for me when I was in college. My mother’s house was in a fire and my mother did not have much money at the time. The Red Cross gave her a new roof. Even the spirit of the Red Cross is entrepreneurial. It’s based upon the need. And the need is met by the Red Cross. I constantly am amazed at how wherever you are, whoever you are, whatever disaster it is, the Red Cross steps up to the plate of those specific needs and almost recreates this business per person, per event, per country. I just came back from Cambodia and Vietnam where we were on an observation trip with potential donors. It was really exciting because these potential donors were capable of giving so much funding to the Red Cross. What we did is we visited school children who benefit from programs that we have with our Vietnamese and Cambodian Red Cross delegates. They have education programs where they offer nutrition and health education to a certain number of schools throughout Vietnam to help children with their cognitive abilities so that they have a greater chance of grasping and learning in school. If they’re hungry and they don’t feel well, then they’re not focusing. It was a great opportunity to, like you said, go to a specific place for a specific reason and see exactly what it was that the Red Cross was doing to meet the needs there based on the requirements of those individuals. It’s very different, let’s say, what the Red Cross might do if there were fires in California. Because these are different needs we’re supposed to meet, so the Red Cross has to think from a completely different point of view which I also did do about 4 weeks ago. I went and visited people in Lake Arrowhead.

TBS: I agree with you totally that an organization is globally important with a rich history and a great soul as the Red Cross, would have several different divisions or methodologies and ways of touching people from a charitable and giving point of view. And you and I have touched on all of them. To give you just a brief example, although this is not the Red Cross, we at The Business Shrink, our radio show and our web site, we’re working through a local church group (my partner is more aware of the details of it–he’s also a soccer player of some stature, although not professional) and brings soccer equipment down and teaches kids, college students, high school kids how to play soccer. Gives them hope, shows them competition, move them along. And then we decided to take 40 kids and get them free computers and train them and teach them how to market and do things online that could be functional where they could get some revenue and where they can grow past that and go onto their own careers. It’s a form of micro-financing.

Peter L: And it’s a form of micro-financing that we will continue to talk about here on The Business Shrink program with you, The Business Shrink, Peter Morris, and our guest, the actress, Elisabeth Rohm. And we welcome your participation if you would like to join us. Just give us a call at 866-546-3114 on this live edition of The Business Shrink program on Lime, healthy living with a twist.

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Segment 4

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Peter L: We’re broadcasting live. That means you can give us a call, if you’d like, and join the conversation at 866-546-3114 as Peter Morris and Elisabeth Rohm continue to talk about philanthropy.

TBS: Elisabeth, it’s clear that one of the less romantic aspects of entrepreneurship has to do with follow through and execution. A lot of people have a lot of ideas and they throw them out at cocktail parties or elsewhere and then they never get acted on. And of course, the Red Cross thrives on people like yourself, who not only have the ideas but they make sure they get done, both directly by yourself and through people that you influence. That’s a very important thing. It sounds like that’s a hallmark in your career that you have the stick-to-it-iveness, the discipline and the stamina to start things and finish them.

Lis: I think that’s a really good point. I think also if you choose the right things to do, whether it be what you do to produce money or what you do philanthropically, how you live your life with your family or whatever it may be, if you choose things from the heart, things you have to complete because they mean that much to you, that the results mean that much to you, then you’ll be on a road that you don’t how long it will take you or where it will take you, but you won’t get off the road because the meaning is so authentic to you. That’s probably why I’ve never given up on myself as an actress. I’ve certainly had years that have been less banner years than other years. I’ve also at the same time pursued the Red Cross and said, “I have this great idea! What do you think? Let’s save everybody in Mexico.” And they say, “Hmm. You know, we’ve got to deal with XY and Z.” This is just an example, of course. Not anything specific I’ve really approached them about. Then I approach them about, let’s say, visiting wounded warriors in San Antonio, Texas at Brook Army Medical Center. Then following it up by visiting Walter Reed and just having a relationship with the wounded warriors and delivering the caring and compassion that we’ve come to know and recognize with the Red Cross. And maintaining a relationship with them as they try to transition back to civilian life. And the Red Cross goes, “Great! Perfect!” The same thing happens with acting. Some director I meet will say, “No you’re not right for this…ever.” You know? It can’t crush me too much. I have to move on to the next meeting where the director says, “You’re right for this. I can’t imagine anybody better for this part.” I think if you choose the right things in life, your perseverance and your follow through, to use your terminology, will come naturally.

TBS: I think so, too. There’s a famous scholar who’s still alive. Interestingly enough, he’s probably credited with selling the most copies of a business book of anybody. He’s a Hungarian psychologist named, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, very hard to spell, but his book is on the flow theory. It’s about creativity and self actualization. His basic mission in life the last 40 years is he’s been studying correlations between money and happiness, creativity and self actualization, and love of your work happiness. It’s not surprising to find out that while the absence of money certainly makes you unhappy, the curve of the presence of money trails off in any positive correlation after a certain amount. You can only wear one suit or dress at a time. But what does continue to march in parallel is self actualization in work. Whether you’re a factory worker or a doctor or a writer or an actress, that if you are passionately engaged, or a teacher, in what you’re undertaking, that creates a lot of happiness and inner peace. Not to denigrate child rearing, significant others, and life balance, but having work and being good at it and enjoying it, no matter how simple or complex or how creative it is, giving of yourself (that’s self actualization) that passion, as you say, is a critical thing. And you can see, with yourself, that you not only find that in your entertainment career, but you find that in your charitable career with the Red Cross and perhaps others. And other volunteers, if the organization is structured properly and there’s good mentors and good support systems for people to volunteer and do good things, would be a multiplier and would be something that powers the Red Cross to be what it is.

Lis: Like you said, I think that if you have an individual experience in your life and you fulfill your needs, you can participate and contribute so much to your families, your children, your husband, your wife if you have a sense of individuality. If you a hear a calling inside of yourself, “I want to change my career. I want to go and get a masters. Or I want have a career to begin with. I’d like to have a career.” Or whatever it may be, this actually going to make your mental health and your personal relationships thrive as well because you’re going to be happy and achieving things as an individual. And having an identity outside of just your marriage or your family. So that leads me to a question that I wanted to ask you because as an entrepreneurial spirit, which I am, I was curious if you feel the need to purse another career and try something different but you don’t have 7 years to devote to getting a Masters, what are some of the careers you could pursue that would only take a year or 2 to complete? Either a training program or a certification.

TBS: What would some of those be? I can give you some good ideas. You want me to respond?

Lis: Yeah!

TBS: These of course have my bias. Areas like social work, areas like mediation, I think is phenomenal. Mediation involves 2 of my passions, or 3. People. It involves psychology. And it involves game theory, which is a term that was made popular in Hollywood with “The Brilliant Mind,” with professor Nash at Princeton. And a number of economists have won Nobel Peace Prizes from the University of Chicago and elsewhere like Stiglets and others. But game theory is really relates to a basic understanding of the variable performance of human beings under certain conditions. That you can predict with reasonable certainty if A happens, then they’re react B and C. As a mediator, you have to be able to mirror people psychologically and have each side feel good about their position even if, in fact, their position may be grandiose or unrealistic. Good to the point that they feel validated and heard because you can’t then reshape their expectations downward or sideways or into a compromise if they don’t feel heard in the first place. Then you have to go to the other side and do the same thing. Where you start is generally way apart. Then how you bring them together and how you work it through non-linear problem solving, understanding the issues behind the issues–because most of the time when there’s a dispute, the manifest subject matter of the dispute really is not what’s going on. You have to be a detective, a psychological detective to find out what are the buttons and then how to get everybody into a deal where it’s either win-win or everyone’s a little bit unhappy, not a lot unhappy. Or where there’s too big a differential. I like to say that a good deal doesn’t involve symmetry, like “I get 2, you get 2. I get 3, you get 3.” A good deal is also an equitable distribution of points of unfairness. That’s mediation. That’s a 1-2 year thing and there’s some gifted people that come to the table with a natural ability for that. Then you get some training and boy, that’s in demand more and more. It also is a great antidote to the somewhat crappy legal system we have.

Lis: Right.

TBS: And I say that as a Harvard trained lawyer and having participated in a lot of litigations. A lot relating to people that abused me financially or whatever, and I don’t stand for it, and I know how to work the system. I do it with integrity, but nevertheless, you have to spend millions of dollars and end up in front of a judge or jury–you’ve already lost. The risk/reward factor of a satisfactory outcome goes way out of whack.

Peter L: And with that soliloquy, Peter Morris, Business Shrink, I have to say goodbye to you. And we have to both say goodbye and thank our guest, the actress, Elisabeth Rohm, for a fascinating hour and great interaction from the audience. Elisabeth, thank you for joining us here on The Business Shrink program.

Lis: Thank you guys, too. I look forward to talking to you guys sometime soon.

TBS: I do, too.

Peter L: It’ll be great. And Peter Morris, Business Shrink, thanks for showing up for your program.

TBS: Well, we do it.

Peter L: Indeed.